Interview: With ‘Before’ and ‘Out of My Mind,’ Judith Light Continues to Conquer Even the Trickiest of Genres

Light is back in the Emmy conversation with Apple TV’s horror-drama Before and Disney+’s coming of age comedy Out of My Mind, two wildly different projects that showcase her seemingly boundless versatility

Judith Light in her prestige TV era is quite a sight to behold. Not only does the Emmy, two-time Daytime Emmy, and two-time Tony winner consistently show up in fascinating, challenging projects but each character she embodies feels radically unique, specific, and somehow only achievable by her. Recent turns include the steely, underappreciated Blanche Knopf in the sumptuous Julia Child series Julia, the overbearing sexpot mom Joan in the horror-comedy series Shining Vale, and the murderous, scheming Irene Smothers in her Emmy-winning turn in Poker Face.

This Emmy season, Light has two drastically different projects in the conversation that only build her argument for inclusion on the Mt. Rushmore of Versatile Actors (which I am building, in my mind).

In Apple TV’s Before, a creepy exploration of trauma starring an against-type Billy Crystal, she portrays Lynn, the ever-present specter of Crystal’s character’s dead wife. For most of the series she scares the bejesus out of the audience but then, in the last episode when the truth of her fate is revealed, she shatters your heart in a way only Light, a maestro of balancing tone and genre, could.

Next, she has a scene-stealing turn as the outwardly dotty but surprisingly deep Mrs. V in Disney+’s critically lauded film Out of My Mind, which follows a teenage girl with cerebral palsy (played brilliantly by newcomer Phoebe-Rae Taylor) as she leaves special ed and tries to fit into a “regular” high school class. Mrs. V’s insights into being different, perseverance, how to be a true ally for those with disabilities, and intergenerational friendship are as vibrant as her spangly outfits (which, I promise, will give you your entire life). 

This magic trick also feels classically Judith Light taking what on the surface might feel like a standardized character trope (the nosy, colorful neighbor) and imbuing her with oceans of unexpected humanity.

I had the great privilege of sitting down with Light and discussing both of these projects and roles along with the healing properties of good art, working with good friends, and what it’s like to be soaking wet on set most of the day.

John Loos: Thank you so much for talking with me!

Judith Light: Are you kidding? I mean, I’m delighted to talk to you.

Loos: It’s so fascinating because last time we talked, we were talking about Shining Vale and Julia, and those were both such different but dynamic roles and now you have two new roles that are equally dynamic, but also completely different from those two roles, as well as being completely different from each other. I’m just curious to start out, do you seek out the variety or does the variety seek you out?

Light: Both. People know that I’m always looking for something that’s different. I’m always looking to pull something from myself that I can look at, that I can learn from myself, and that it can also be of service to the audience, I think, and they let me know that they enjoy seeing me do lots of different things, and so people know that. And sometimes I get this plethora of things that are exactly the same, and then I have to say, “No, thank you. I really appreciate that, but I’m not going to be able to do that.” And I have something else that’s coming up that’s wildly different that’s going to be out next year…I relish that. That’s what I adore and that’s what I love about our business, and that’s what I love about the human condition and different kinds of people and who they are and what that can give to an audience.

Loos: I love that. And yeah, you’ve always been known for that. Watching these projects back to back, it’s just so striking though the way you’re able to inhabit these very different characters very, very effortlessly. We’ll start with Before. I’m curious, I did a little research, but I couldn’t find anything definitive. Have you worked with Billy Crystal before?

Light: No, but we’re friends. I mean, we’ve known each other for years. And so it feels like we may have worked together before because when you have that…kind of shorthand with someone and you have an instant connection and chemistry, you think, “Oh, they must have worked together before.” I had that with Bette Midler too. Bette and I met each other when we were doing The Politician, and we were like, “Oh, there you are. Hi.” So same thing with Billy and me. And Billy had called me and he said, “Will you come over and meet with Sarah Thorpe and me and let’s talk about this project?” So that’s how that all came about.

Loos: I love that. And we’ll get into the trauma aspects and the deeper themes, but I love that you get to play a ghost in this series, kind of this specter of Billy’s character’s memory and imagination. What was it like creating that? It feels like a magic trick, like creating this character, but it’s also this projection of another character. So how did you collaborate with Billy to come up with this presence of Lynn?

Light: Well, it’s in the script, and Sarah Thorpe who wrote this and who is our showrunner and Joe Sousa, they were writing these scripts with a kind of energy that I could pick up from the script. And also, when you know that you are in service to another character, there’s a sense in which you carry that with you, which is the outer manifestation of the love that they had through the centuries. So when you think those thoughts, and when you feel them emotionally in your gut, the combination of that can create… and a great script, and a great co-star, you can create an energetic movement. And I hope this sounds clear. And you have directors who know how to shoot that, and where you’re carrying that energy, that’s what moves it forward. It’s not an easy thing to do. Everybody thinks, “Oh, well, you don’t have any lines, and you just stand there.” It’s like, no, there is a great deal that goes into creating that.

Loos: Yeah, absolutely. Because Lynn is such a… It’s kind of a terrifying presence in some ways. It’s this great tone of horror, thriller. But then that last episode comes and we see the reality of Lynn. So you have the specter of Lynn and the reality of Lynn, and you just break our heart in that last episode. What was it like creating those two different sides of the coin?

JL: I have to give kudos, the support of the hair and makeup team and the way they helped me create that was really great…and also costumes, Michelle Matland and my dear friend, Midge Denton. We were in the middle of shooting the bathtub scene and I said to everybody, “Don’t have me get in and out of the bathtub. That’s going to be crazy. Just put me in the bathtub and let me stay there.” And there was this moment where Lynn goes under the water, and the costume was ballooning up from the water and the air and we couldn’t get the shot. So Midge came in with 45,000 safety pins and pinned the whole thing down so that you couldn’t see. So I would have to say that a lot of it had to do with the support I got from those teams. That really made a difference. And also, when you’re friends with somebody and you know somebody, you have chemistry with them, and great respect. I think Billy is remarkable in this. You’ve never seen him like this before.

The intimacy between the two of us and the safety factor between the two of us was really… And also Jet Wilkinson, who was directing that particular episode, in that moment, in those moments, the tenderness, the fragility, the sorrow, the longing, the centuries of knowledge of each other that lived in the cells and the memory of both of us, we didn’t even really have to talk about it. We knew what was required. And the crew was remarkable. They were so present. Those cameras were right here. And Billy just brought it. I mean, when he goes to lift me out of the tub and puts me on the floor outside of the tub…it killed us both. And then they said, “cut!” and he did something so funny that had me literally hysterical. Billy would just do something that would break the tension for everybody. I mean, you talk about somebody who’s so generous and so kind. So I felt really privileged to get to work with him.

So those are some of the pieces of what we were using to bring ourselves to that place. And we knew we were going to have to get there, and everybody was wondering how it was going to be because the bathtub, it’s a huge presence. It’s almost like another character in the scene.

Loos: You are right, he absolutely brought it. And you did too! I’d never seen a moment quite like that between actors, but also between characters that have been married that long. And it was just heartbreaking. And speaking of the bathtub, you were wet a lot. How do you stay warm? I’m always curious for actors, how do you stay warm when you have to shoot in water for an extended period of time?

Light: When you do it and you’re going to do it, you have wonderful people. I mean, Midge was always there with a blanket. Somebody was always there with warmers if you needed it. There were heaters. People really do, when you have a great set and great people and great producing, you have people there to take care of you. And blankets. And also you have to be willing to stay wet so that you’re not drying off and coming back and forth and taking so much time away from production because you’ve got to keep going, you got to move, you got to go. So you have to make your peace with that. You know it when you read the script, you have to do it.

Loos: I think the show says some really wonderful and profound things about trauma. There’s a line in that about trauma as a vortex and how sometimes it’s as if we belong to it. I’m curious what you think the show gets right about the experience of living with a traumatic event or a traumatic loss?

Light: I think it gets everything right about it, and much of that is the script. Much of that is the other characters and the way they talk about it. Much of that is absolutely due to Billy’s performance. And to Jacobi Jupe, the young boy who Billy has much of his work to do… with whom he has much of his work to do. So when you see that trauma is locked in the body, and that there are in fact great healers that can guide you through something, not just because they want to be of service to you, but because they know they have their own trauma to heal. That was what the balance in this show shows, is that it’s not just one person, that the healing person is not superior to the one that looks like they need to be healed.

When both people are healed, the healing really does begin. And the trauma starts… And I’m very interested in reincarnation, so for me, I look at that and I say, “Where did that trauma begin?” Where in your ancestry does that live and how do you reframe it, recalibrate it? And I really do believe that this show has done a remarkable job in showing that. Until you talk about it, you’re just watching this really interesting story. But when you talk about it, and it’s a great question, that’s how I see it.

AW: That’s fantastic. It’s really well said, and I think you’re absolutely right. It made me rethink about things in my past and the way I’ve processed things.

Light: Yes. But that’s what entertainment is for. It’s like, does it make you think? Are you scared? Is it a horror show? Are you entertained? But also, what about me? Or what about those people in my life that I meet and I go, “I know you. I feel like I know you. I don’t know you. We’ve never met before, but I feel something about you.” Well, where does that come from? And I think it’s worth, I’m curious about it, and I think it’s worth investigating.

Loos: Yeah, absolutely.

Light: Did you figure out what it was for you?

Loos: Oh, well, I’ve had suicide in my family. So Lynn’s story, or Billy’s experience processing that… It’s different circumstances, obviously, but it made me really think about the way I hold onto things and the way I… The way Billy would evade questioning from his therapist and be like, “I’m fine.” That was me for so many years. I was like, “Oh, that’s me.” That really resonated.

Light: Yeah.

Loos: And over the years, I think I’ve been better able to process and talk about it. But yeah, there’s so many layers to his journey and his experience that I think resonated for me. So I just appreciate what you did there.

Light: Oh, that’s so good. That’s so important. And don’t you love when he’s not willing to talk about it, and he says, “I’m not talking about it,” and Lynn, standing in the corner says, “Liar?”

Loos: Yes!

Light: Liar. There’s a presence there, a specter who comes in and speaks to your unconscious and knows you know. And it’s like, “Wake the fuck up.”

Loos: It was such a wonderful jolting moment that I think expanded the show in such a wonderful way. I’m like, “Oh, this isn’t just a ghost story about loss. There’s something more here. There’s something deeper. There’s layers here.” I love that moment.

Light: Yeah. Great questions and great perception and good for you for working those things out.

Loos: Thank you. And speaking of healing, I want to talk about Out of My Mind, because I feel like that was a healing, wonderful experience for me to watch.

Light: Really? In what way?

Loos: Well, I have two nephews and a niece that have special needs, or different abilities. So watching Melody’s story was, I think… It was a wonderful way of getting insight into her world, but also seeing the universality of some of her experiences. I’m just curious what your impression was when this project came across your desk?

Light: I wasn’t sure I wanted to do it, quite honestly. And I said that to Amber Sealey when she called me. I was in the middle of hair. I was in the middle of shooting Poker Face in upstate New York with Natasha Lyonne for Rian Johnson. I was shooting Poker face. And she called me and she said, “I want to talk about this project.” I’m not so interested in the goofy next door neighbor. You know what I mean? It’s like the nosy, goofy next door neighbor. But I looked at the script and I said, “That’s not who she is.” And Amber said, “That’s not who she has to be.” It’s a very lonely woman who also has great insight and great love for this young girl, and also does not want to see her be enabled by anybody. And when she says to her, “Just because somebody wipes your ass doesn’t mean you have to kiss theirs,” and there’s something so powerful in that moment.

I began to see it through Amber Sealey, the director’s eyes. And I knew that it was going to be a great team. I know Luke Kirby, I think he’s spectacular. And I love Rosemarie DeWitt, I’ve just adored her. I’ve known her for many years. And when they were talking to me, Amber sent me a tape of Phoebe-Rae Taylor, and I was like, “Who is this person? Who is this soul? And what does it mean to be of service in that way to be a part of this project?” And that really captured me. And also, I had a manager who passed away almost eight, nine years ago now, and his niece has cerebral palsy. And I thought, “This is for Jenny.” Jenny is not as challenged, I would say, as the character in this piece. But what does it mean to find your voice?

What does it mean to be a person who has no way to communicate, but is so startled and stunned and shocked by Stephen Hawking and his ability to speak through a machine, and the fact that we have that capability, and that this is a young woman for the rest of her life who will have a voice? I just think that’s remarkable. And there are so many of us out there who have had to find our voice. And what has that journey been? Maybe it’s not through a machine, but it’s how you speak up. It’s like what you were saying before about the people in your family. It’s like those people weren’t able to speak up. They couldn’t find their voice to say, “I want to be here. I need help,” or whatever it is. So for me, it was like that was the step.

And of course, I read the book. I had not read the book before, and then I met Sharon Draper, and I got swept up in it. And I was saying, I think I said it to Billy, I said, “What’s going on with these young actors in London?” It’s like, is there something in the water? It’s like Phoebe-Rae Taylor, and then there’s Jacobi Jupe. And it’s like, “Wait a minute, I’m going to go over and drink some of that water over in London.” Which I’m going to get to do. I’m speaking at the Oxford Union, and then I’m going on to Monte Carlo. I’m going to be the president of the film and television jury in Monte Carlo.

Loos: Oh cool!

Light: I’m going to drink some of that water over there. Because these young people are remarkable… Aren’t they stunning? They’re  amazing!

AW: I love it. I love what you said about your character, Mrs. V. To me… Well, first of all, when you came on screen and you were wearing that pink sweater and the earrings, I ascended to the astral plane.

Light: I know, it’s pretty great.

Loos: But you’re right. She is a person that sees Melody in a way that few people do. She sees her as a full person with a full spectrum of talents and needs. What was really important for you to get right in that portrayal? And you talked about a little bit, but I’d love to hear a little bit more.

Light: What was important was to make sure that there wasn’t anything soppy about it. And Amber would never have let me go there anyway. There was one scene that we did have, which they had to eliminate for a couple of reasons, and one of them being time. And the focus has to be within the structure of the family, between her mother and her father, where she yells at me. And so that still lived in me when I was doing the whole thing. It’s like she’s feisty. This gal, this is like, there’s a person in there that Mrs. V wants to make sure lives a life where she has her full capacity of joy and love and experience and capability. And it’s like that has to drive the whole thing. And that’s where she lives. And also it talks about intergenerational friendship.

We don’t talk enough about that. What does it mean to have somebody who is more mature than you, who is a woman who can talk to you about things, and what do those things mean? And so in so many ways, Mrs. V takes on that position. And she takes it on herself. Nobody asked her to do it. It’s like she’s going to just do whatever she wants to do because she knows how important it is. And we all want to make a difference in life. And that’s her desire to make a difference and make an impact.

Loos: I love that. And I love what you said too about not wanting it to be soppy, because I think what is so remarkable about this film is it shows Melody’s day-to-day issues and struggles, but it also shows some very universal experiences, like her just wanting to fit in and wanting to make friends, being the new person in class…

Light: And win, win a contest! It’s like, “Let me be part of the team. Let me in. Let me be there.” We all have that. It’s a metaphor for all of that. We all want to fit in, in some way.

Loos: Absolutely. And it’s such a great message about equity and about making sure that people have that ability to participate, that ability to be a part of society the way anyone else would, which was I think what really stuck out for me.

Light: I think that is so well said and so brilliant, particularly at this time in our world. That we must maintain that with ferocity. It’s really, really important. Everybody bleeds the same blood.

Loos: Well said. Yeah.

Light: Everybody is a human being. And respect and honor for that is… I don’t care what your challenges are in life, we are here to love and honor and respect you.

Loos: I love that. And I think that’s a wonderful note to end on. Thank you, Judith, again for taking the time to chat. 

Light: I love talking to you. I love it!

Judith Light is Emmy-eligible in the categories of Supporting Actress in a Limited or Anthology Series, Movie or Special for AppleTV+’s Before and Supporting Actress in a Limited or Anthology Series/Television Movie for Disney+’s Out of My Mind.